The video I made above has to do with the two links below. They go to the official ISKCON news site’s coverage of a recent appearance of ISKCON guru and official pundit Drutakarma Das (a.k.a. alternative science spokesman Michael Cremo), on a popular American TV network, The History Channel. It’s so refreshing to see the official ISKCON news organ proudly present one of their own participating in a “scientific” documentary series based upon the search for proof of extraterrestrial (alien) visitations and settlements in ancient times.
I especially enjoyed the basic idea behind their visit to Dwaraka, and their ideas about Krishna. It seems that Drutakarma and his friends in the pseudo-history industry are passionately into promoting the idea that the ancient Vedic devas, or gods, were actually alien visitors. The descriptions of mystical events or mystical weapons, aren’t metaphors or literary embellishments (alankara), according to Drutakarma and friends they are misunderstood revelations of ancient alien technology — like lasers or rockets or aircraft or spaceships or whatever. The history revealed in ancient scripture, it turns out (according to them guys), are actually hidden clues revealing our alien overlords past interaction with our ancient ancestors — with the aliens starring in the role as the devas (good demi-gods), and I assume the asuras (bad demi-gods) as well. Wars between devas and asuras — were actually between battling aliens?
Their basic premise goes something like this: Imagine if our modern military encountered European knights from the middle ages. How would they perceive us? Our technology would look magical or from a higher realm to them. Their expected reaction is considered to be almost axiomatic ever since Arthur C. Clarke made his 3 laws of predictions — the 3rd and most famous being:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
That is the basic premise of the documentary and researchers Drutakarma is working with and supporting, which in turn is also being supported by ISKCON’s official news outlet. They teach that God, or the Gods that were written about in ancient cultures, were really aliens with advanced technology, e.g. spaceships, aircraft, advanced weaponry, etc. According to them, Krishna was an alien with very advanced technology, as were the other Gods. They were so advanced that the common people couldn’t tell that their power came from technology, so they ended up worshiping them as Gods. That eventually led to the creation of today’s religions, with roots deep in our long ago past association with aliens.
It’s not a new type of theory. Zecharia Sitchin, Immanuel Velikovsky and Erich von Däniken (very popular in the late 1960s-70s) all tread the same ground in the past. Chariots of the Gods? by Erich von Däniken was a hugely popular book and movie, it spawned a mini-industry around it much like Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code has done recently. Even Steven Spielberg’s reboot of Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull a couple years ago, was based on the same played out aliens-are-our-gods plot. More recently Laurence Gardner wrote a series of popular books connecting aliens with Adam and Eve; the Egyptian pyramids; Jesus and the Holy Grail; and European aristocracy.
So it’s nice to see the lack of shame or embarrassment from ISKCON leaders. Hey, it gets their faces on TV; it gets their books in stores; and it puts money in their bank accounts. If the suckers want nonsense, why not give them what they want while making some bank in the process? So what if they have to support the idea that God and all religions are bogus; that they’re actually all based upon a misunderstanding of visits by technologically super advanced alien civilizations to the primitive Earth society thousands of years ago? Now we call them God because back then we worshiped their technology as mystic potency. But not for much longer — our intrepid alternative historians are out to set us all free! Oh Joy!
From http://news.iskcon.org/node/3326:
“Ancient underwater cities can be found around the globe, but could these aquatic worlds be the ruins of unknown civilizations–or even proof of extraterrestrial visitations?”
From http://news.iskcon.org/node/3327
So it’s nice to see the lack of shame or embarrassment from ISKCON leaders. Hey, it gets their faces on TV; it gets their books in stores; it puts money in their bank accounts. If the suckers want nonsense, why not give them what they want and make some bank in the process? So what if they have to support the idea that God and all religions are bogus; that they’re actually all based upon a misunderstanding of our being visited by technologically super advanced alien civilizations to the primitive Earth society thousands of years ago. Now we call them God because back then we worshiped their technology as mystic potency. But not for long — our intrepid alternative historians are out to set us all free! Oh Joy!
What’s the average lifespan of males in the U.S.? 73 years? So we have to put up with these non-sense for another decade at least. Very unfortunate.
These laughing stocks, of which Michael Cremo is a part , are killing Krishna.
Of course, anyone who has a scintilla of common sense, who needs not even resort to anthropological context, will see through the stupidity this idiot is spouting off.
The worst thing is when stupid people thinks that all Krishna followers are as non-sense as this guy.
This is really shocking. I’m glad you started this website (and also Hare Krishna Women, which I just discovered.) Great work.
Still listening to the video above… I agree with Malati’s comment. I don’t know if I should laugh or cry!
Can’t somebody bring Sadaputa back? He was great :(
Anuradha
I doubt Drutakarma believes in the alien/God theories which are so popular amongst many people (in recent polls around 1/3 of Americans believe in past alien visitations). My guess is that he is willing to use his science credibility in support of those theories because the types of people who believe in aliens are the ones who buy his books — i.e. people into ‘alternative history’; conspiracy theories about UFOs, etc.
To me it seems he sees a way to get more famous and therefore make more money through his books and lecture fees. He doesn’t seem to care if in the process he helps to convince countless people that ancient religions were really misunderstandings about alien visitations.
Then again, who knows? Maybe he believes that “The Truth is Out There?”
Vraja you said: My guess is that he is willing to use his science credibility in support of those ……..
What credibility? The quote was taken from wikipedia:
Forbidden Archeology (Cremos’ book) has been criticized for failing to test simpler hypotheses before proceeding to propose more complex ones (a violation of Occam’s razor) and for relying heavily on outdated evidence (often from the 19th and early 20th century).[16] Tom Morrow of the National Center for Science Education noted that Cremo’s “specimens no longer exist” and called his work pseudoscience.[1]
Once we resort to finding physical evidence for the subjects covered in the shastras, Bhagavad Gita for example or stories in the Bhagavatam, that would be the deathknell of “faith”, relationship with God Krishna or even prema.
Cremo should ask himself, does mathematics exist? Where is it located? Nowhere. Yet they work and mathematical physics can substantially describe and explain the goings on in this world.
Cremo should know that even mathematics work by axiom. (In mathematics or logic, an unprovable rule or first principle accepted as true because it is self-evident or particularly useful).
The truth about God or Krishna can be found anywhere. It’s within us, without us, and as a follower of GVism it’s in the poetics of our tradition. Others here can cite more examples I’m sure.
Cremo should stop looking for evidence of the physical Dwarka or the physical Vraja. Unless of course, he is in it not as a GV devotee but for some other reasons.
Malati
Most of the mainstream science community don’t respect Drutakarma, but that doesn’t matter to millions of people. Just like the mainstream rejects and ridicules the scientists who support Intelligent Design — not on their qualifications or scientific arguments, instead they reject them simply because they reject the possibility that evolution could be wrong or that God exists or could have created the lifeforms on earth. Millions of highly intelligent people see through their posturing and irrational reaction to Intelligent Design and the scientists who support it. It doesn’t matter to them that the mainstream ridicules them because they recognize the close-mindedness or agenda behind it..
The same thing is happening with Drutakarma’s books. The mainstream may reject on principle, but many people don’t care about the mainstream. There is a huge audience of people who are very interested in alternative science and history, that’s why Drutakarma has had the success he has had, it’s why mainstream science media hires him to speak on their TV shows or speak at conferences — lot’s of people are into it regardless of the mainstream science consensus, in fact to go against the consensus is seen as a plus to many people.
The mainstream science community is over 90% hardcore atheist and evolutionist, but that doesn’t stop most people from believing in God, and a big percentage from rejecting evolution.
Drutakarma’s Forbidden Archeology has never been refuted simply because of the nature of the book, i.e. he simply presents the findings of past scientists which were ignored because they went against the mainstream story on the time-line of human evolution. The only way to refute it all is to go over every piece of data and prove it wrong. Since most of the evidence is from a long time ago and there is such a huge amount of it, it suits the mainstream to simply ridicule it and ignore the data rather than mount a serious challenge.
They have their theory of human history, based on consensus evolutionary time-lines, and they simply don’t care if they are right or wrong because almost all of them have closed minds, or an agenda, when it comes to evolution and human history — regardless of data — as they have proven time and time again in their reaction to the books of Intelligent Design promoting scientists.
The critics of Drutakarma’s books have never presented a real refutation, they make claims to have done so, but have never backed them up with data — just what they do in their attacks on Intelligent Design scientists. So I can’t fault his work as pseudo-science on their word alone. They try to get away with the “argument from authority” whenever alternative scientists challenge the status quo, and they want to keep the status quo as is, i.e. “we’re the experts, take our word for it, that guy is a fraud.”
Anyways, that book is not about the archaeological work of Drutakarma, instead it’s historical journalism. He and his partner Sadaputa Das researched the presentation of others and simply presented it; they did detective work. That work was never refuted in it’s time, it was ignored because it contradicted the consensus view, which provides fame; jobs; tenure; grants; etc. To go against consensus science is generally career suicide because so many careers are made and maintained by consensus views. If you tell 50,000 academics that they are wrong; that they are not experts; most will try to destroy your credibility regardless of the truth. Plus, it’s not as if all credible scientists have disagreed with what he found, quite a few are supportive.
My criticism of Drutakarma wasn’t about his literary work, it was about using his credibility as a leading spokesman for alternative science and history to aid in the promotion of teaching that religions in general, and belief in Krishna as God specifically, are products of primitive people misunderstanding technologically advanced extra-terrestrial visitors to earth long ago as Gods. How is such a person a respected spiritual leader, and promoted by ISKCON’s official news outlet? It’s obvious he does it for the fame it brings, i.e. TV shows and others hire him or get him to speak as an “expert” on alternative history in their agenda to promote wacky theories (in order to sell books and get paid to speak) which directly tries to make people lose faith in God or Krishna.
I don’t agree with your idea that science shouldn’t be used to try to prove that the mainstream evolutionary history propagated by unethical scientists (with an agenda) is mistaken because people should only rely on faith. Isaac Newton is generally considered the greatest scientist of all time, he said that his work was all about trying to reveal God’s hand in nature. Many of the greatest scientists in history have said similar things about their motivation. It’s only in the last 80 or so years that mainstream science has tried to ban God from any discussion of science. While a person’s faith is ultimately predicated upon God’s will, how that faith is strengthened or created, is not limited to religious arguments alone. Science and philosophy are also used by God. A prime example is Professor Sir Antony Flew. He was one of the world’s pre-eminent atheist philosophers, that is until he read some books on Intelligent Design. See his book:
There Is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind
Vraja you said: I don’t agree with your idea that science shouldn’t be used to try to prove that the mainstream evolutionary history propagated by unethical scientists (with an agenda) is mistaken because people should only rely on faith.
I think you are misunderstanding me on this point. I have a science degree so it would be very stupid of me to even hint at that idea.
Evolution is a scientific premise and therefore it should be argued within the framework of science. The fact that there are theist-scientists, like Francis Collins, Karl Giberson, or Kenneth Miller and atheist-scientists (I’m sure you know who they are) that believe in evolution means that science is neutral.
Science does not have a default position. No direct evidence of God can be found in science. It may inform us but it’s just that.
As a GV my position is that our “faith” our “seed of love for God” is inherent in the core of the jiva’s being.
Yes, you are right about Newton, his motivation in finding scientific truth is finding a glimpse of God in nature. But do you think, Newton will now be an ATHEIST because newtonian (classical) physics is now superseded by quantum physics? I hope not.
Thomas Aquinas, arguably the greatest medieval philosopher and had the greatest influence on western philosophy, had written, when science and philosophy was considered as one, a very influential theological treatise in the Summa Theologica, but even he stopped being an intellectual when he experienced a mystical insight.
If you follow the debate in your great country, you will have heard that there are studies that conclusions in science generally get weaker as time goes on and many established conclusions from experiments can sometimes can NOT be replicated again.
If I subscribe to the present conclusion of ID and that conclusion changes the next week, will my faith weakened or go away? Of course not.
My faith in the truth of Krishna is not predicated on science at all. If I find in science a better understanding of God then that’s a good thing but it will never define my faith.
The point I was trying to make is the heavy emphasis on science to buttress our faith.And the dependence of some people to justify their faith by science.
Flew may had been persuaded by the flow of scientific evidence for the existence of God so, good on him! I dont know that the conclusions that informed him are still valid today though.
Malati
Flew gave up atheism a couples years ago from reading recent books on Intelligent Design. Those books show that complex machines utilizing code as a language to communicate, like a computer, cannot be the product of blind forces. Science can prove that life as we know it (bodies, plants) couldn’t come into existence without being designed because they are far too complex and sophisticated, e.g. there is a limit to what can occur in nature by blind forces, e.g. blind natural forces can create some level of complexity, like say the design of a snowflake, or rivers, but it cannot jump to the level of creating a computerized robot, or a computerized factory that produces jet engines. That level of complexity requires planning. Lifeforms are vastly more complex then either of those things, cells are run by code, like computers, and manufacture engines vastly more sophisticated then a jet engine. For example this video is an animation of the inside of a cell: (actually less then 10% of the activity in a cell, to allow visuals, so much is going on that to reproduce the entire thing would make it too dense and complex to see details:
Nature reveals God, the more knowledge we gain on the details of how nature works the more obvious it becomes. Of course God hides that fact from many people, i.e. evolutionists. But also reveals that fact to many others. You may not need science to buttress your faith, I certainly don’t, nor do mystics in general because we experience the truth of God first hand.But many people do not. I don’t poo on science as a method of revelation for whoever needs it. Many people are born into a faith but never have any experience, so their faith is weak, it’s based more on conditioning then on realization. The scientists working on Intelligent Design are providing a lot of people with the proof they need to gain faith. I think it’s a good thing, and as everything else, part of Krishna’s arrangement and control.
the post above (by vrajabhumi) is been copied from one of my notebooks, the 1 i left in gangotree in a suitcase many years ago
who are you?
I work for the gangotri lost and found department.
nice job
d